Many thanks to Producers Pam Oei and E.T. for all their hard work in making this video clip reality.
And of course a BIG thank you to all the people who lent there faces and voices for the cause… Dave Tan (Electrico), the Dim Sum Dollies (Emma Yong, Pam Oei & Selena Tan), Glen Goei, Irene Ang, Kumar, Beatrice Chia & Mark Richmond, Neo Swee Lin & Lim Kay Siu, Robin Goh, Tan Kheng Hua, and Yeo Yann Yann.
Song credit:
“With Every Heartbeat” (Kleerup Remix) by Robyn [official website]
Equality is a term is used by people of many disjointed political philosophies developed separately by political activists.
This is about our societal view about gay lifestyles. Repealing the Act has one fundamental impact, it means that we accept the lifestyle as mainstream. Just like if we approve other behaviours like drug abuse. Do they hurt others? Yes and no, it is arguable. But it is clearly frowned upon by society at large. What does that say? It says it goes against the grain of our moral beliefs.
Morality refers to an ideal code of conduct, one which would be espoused in preference to alternatives by all rational people, under specified conditions. Therefore, if society considers gay lifestyle immoral, then it cannot approve of it in the laws which reflects our core beliefs.
Unfortunately, this website is a reflection of a minority, who has great power over the sphere of media. God help us all.
Morality is a term used by some people to obfuscate prejudices, hide discrimination and dodge logical consideration of what is just or not.
This is not only about our society’s view about homosexuality, it is about treating every human being as equals. Repealing 377a does not mean that you personally condone homosexuality. Instead it makes a statement about tolerance in our society. It is the very same tolerance that allows you to hold the view that the “gay lifestyle” is frowned upon that we are seeking.
If society largely frowns upon homosexuality, then it merely does. The consideration does not make homosexuality neither moral nor immoral. That decision lies with a individual’s belief system or religion. What is needed is for a Christian to allow a place for Islam in our society as much as homosexuality. A diversity of beliefs do not necessitate blatant discrimination.
Even if homosexuals are a minority, the tyranny of the majority should not subjugate us. The only moral and just stand is to repeal 377a. God helps us all, not God help us all.
Well said Colin,
Throughout history, there has been horrible discrimination -racial, political, and gender. If the majority had its way and forced its views on society, we would still have widespread slavery and genocide, and women would be treated as slaves (in some countries, these atrocities still occur).
People are entitled to their views, but just because they think they have the support of the majority, doesn’t make them right (or give them the right to feel righteous). Tolerance and equality need to replace discrimination. 377A needs to be repealed.
I think we are just scratching the surface. What is the real agenda? Where will it end? If this Act is repealed, what’s next? Recognition as equal sex status, legislation against employment bias, same sex marriage, right to adopt? This has played out very well in the West, and for those more informed, the path ahead is clear.
It is not about subjugation, because no homosexuals has been jailed for being homosexuals in Singapore. It is about getting the society to believe you are deserving of equal right, and silencing those who dissent. It is about putting it into law, so that even those who believe that such behaviour is sin cannot object. It is about educating a new MTV generation that your agenda is right, and ours is wrong.
At the end, we are only against the behaviour. Not against the person. The Act, not the Actor.
The only agenda is for homosexuals not to live under the shroud of a criminal offence, which Section 377A serves to enforce, for a life of their own free will, which does not concern anyone else.
The existence of this penal code will precisely be “against the Actor”, because then, the law would have every reason to call the “Actor” to account. And note, it is a criminal offence, which is the most severe of all offences. For that which is intrinsically a moral or social issue, the weight of legal prosecution is not only unfair, but completely incongruous.
Adultery is unequivocably sinful, as upheld in Christian conviction. Even with other major religious beliefs, it is deemed undoubtedly immoral. It has far-reaching social consequences which threaten our social fabric, but there is no legislation against it. So why this?
Repealing the penal code for an act (oral and anal sex) for one cross- section of the population (the heterosexual community), while retaining it as a criminal offence for another (the homosexual community), is nothing but discrimination.
The homosexual community is not trying to determine who is right and who is wrong, just basic recognition that they can live the lives they have chosen without prejudice or discrimination.
The homosexual community will probably continue to be frowned upon by the vast majority. Social marginalisation will continue to persist, through insidious nuances which we have all, unfortunately, come to accept whether we like it or not. We certainly do not need to be marginalised further by legal discrimination.
Recognition as equal sex status, legislation against employment bias, same sex marriage, right to adopt… just what exactly is wrong with all these?
The only things being threatened here perhaps are antiquated ideals of living handed down over generations.
Why are not lucid consenting adults free to choose towards whom and how to express their love?
We are not forcing those who are unwilling to partake in our lifestyle. We never have. We are simply recognizing that like anyone else, we too have the right to choose to live a life that makes sense for us, and are simply asking for that right. In that, you are I are not so very different.
It is not enough to simply concede that the Government does not actively persecute mutually consenting gay sex in private venues. By your denial of our right to equality, you are blanketing us, presumably because you fear that repealing 377a will threaten your lifestyle / worldview / beliefs?
Do you know that you are essentially saying : just because we choose different bedmates we are somehow deficient, lacking and unworthy? Now try saying that to the face of someone else of a different race from yours, and watch what happens. For full effect, pick someone bigger.
Nobody here is saying that in recognizing our rights, you are somehow wrong. You are free to hold your beliefs. But to act on them and act out against others who hold different views from you is surely something altogether different? Have you considered deeply why another human being will think nothing of strapping bombs to themselves and running into a crowd of strangers who have personally done them no wrong? No my friend, its not because of that “100-virgins” promise.
Oh I suppose its simple: they’re “wrong”. or mistaken. or lost. or misguided. In any case they need “saving”.
We don’t need your pity, we don’t need saving. We however would like very much your respect and love as a fellow human being. We would like to be able to walk down the streets holding hands without eliciting disgust and hatred.
Where will it end? It ends when you realize that if you don’t like hamsters, then choose not to keep one. That part is easy. Now the hard part: Allow those who do like hamsters to keep as many as they want to as long as they do so in a safe, responsible way in which neither party is harmed.
It’s so ironic that of the 10 entries here, 2 are by homophobes. Makes one wonder why they ever came to this website anyway.
And even then, their rhetoric, over used, insubstantial and so amusingly irrational. But it is not unexpected.
Majority of Singaporeans are against homosexuality (or so they say). But majority of them have also undergone the same education, been with the same people, done the same thing and lived the same lives. Too many Singaporeans are Singaporeans. Too many of them are narrow minded.
In the end, what truly matters is that we are happy with who we are. The stupid people will kill themselves off anyway, right?
Thank you all the artist to help us to repeal the rights for gay…..
Where is the rest of ‘our people’? If you don’t stand up now, it wil be never….. Please think about it, just a simple of your signature and tell your friends. Let’s get free together..
Frankly speaking, morals are a personal thing. My personal morals tell me that the most criminal act anyone can commit is forcing others to live by their morals and not be free to live their lives the way they want. I am NOT a Christian. I do not believe in a God that would exclude or punish one of it’s creations just for being.
Our brother David seems to think that everyone should understand his personal morals, while not trying to understand anyone else’s. David… homosexuality has existed far longer than your religion. It is here and always has been. At some points in history it was even held in high regard. As a superlative sort of love. Just because your religion and others like it have been accepted as mainstream… does not mean that they are the only real or respected views.
The Singaporean constitution clearly states equality for all. ALL of it’s citizens. It is not only unfair to allow this law to exist, it is an embarrassment for a country as advanced as Singapore to allow such an archaic and absurd code to exist in this century. Stand up, and grow up. Do what is right, not for yourself but for ALL of Singapore, and repeal this code.
I was wondering if there’s even a need to get oneself ‘accepted’ in the 1st place? The government most certainly dun give a shit about our existence in specifics… and we most certainly have a choice not to live by their textbooks of penis codes and whatever. So why the big fuss?
Discrimination never ends, whether if you’re a woman,man,gay,les,bi,some other race other than mine, fat, anorexic, fashion disaster, loud-mouthed aunties, SM fanatics, or whatever. Cause our brains are mere limited shit that has to place stuff into categories properly in order to function ‘normally’.
Why not just start living and enjoying your lives rather than wasting your time on trying to change people’s views. I’m sure you guys will be a lot f*ckin happier =)
I’m packing up and going for some sun-bathing at Siloso beach, anyone interested?
I disagree on this repeal act, i believe that Majority of Singaporeans are against homosexuality, and Government is already making it clear that it will not act like a police to enforce this acts. I personally agree with this Act 377a. Go for it Singapore
Because there will be some who are satisfied by being accepted by a small, minority community but there are others who will only be satisfied when they can live the lives that the majority live. That means getting married and being recognised as a legit couple, having the rights to have children or apply for public housing etcetc.
do u think women would have even gotten the right to vote without making a “big fuss”? I doubt so.. Even the current underground openness of SG society today cannot be the product of just laying low and enjoying life quietly.
So it’s fine if ppl wanna just go sun-bathing, but why diss those that are trying to build a better future for themselves?
Many things that we now take for granted, we could not do so years ago, if it wasn’t for the small victories that were won along the way.
Sometimes I don’t know what is more harmful, the blatant disregard from the hetetosexual community or the insidious apathy from the homosexual community that refuses to fight its own wars. And yet have the cheek to rest on those laurels that have been built by others who care enough to put in the effort to push for change.
No one is trying to challenge the government for the chance to put on our feather boas and march the streets of Orchard Road. We are merely trying to ascertain what’s rightfully ours…
And that is, to recognise our right to live our lifestyles without being branded as a criminal, regardless of what the moral stand of the country is. I am a law abiding citizen who dutifully pays my taxes, who will take up arms to protect the country if ever such a need arises. So at least respect me without branding me a criminal for the life I build for myself and my partner in the privacy of our own home.
And it is exactly when we are happy, well adjusted individuals living our lives to the fullest that we realise that there are some things in life that are worth fighting for.
I would like to apologise if my views have been sounding really ignorant, that it is likely caused by my inability to understand the magnitude of the issue, and most likely not being a gay myself. Mental capacity side, I guess it also very much about how much weight one place on how others look at oneself, and that I don’t really give a shit about how the government feels about me, but I forgot the fact that it might not be so for many others.
Due to my religon’s practice, I do not believe in wars and change initiated by force, no matter which sides I take to be right. Rather, I believe in change initiated through understanding, but I forget again that not all may see eye-to-eye. The assumption I have on the right order for change should start from the people, leading to the government adopting the consensus view, and ending with such unfair laws like this particular penal code being repealed naturally as a result of the process. Anger leads to a response of anger, war leads to more wars, I for one, do not desire such an outcome. In principal it works, but I may be just merely naive with such an ideal. I leave that for your consideration.
I will be signing the petition, in hope that it is a rightful action, and that the action is well worth the consequences and will lead to the right effect.
It isn’t a choice for fun.
No-one wake up one day and go, “I want to be gay, and enjoy narrow-minded people discriminating against me every single day, yay.”
If you say that majority of Singaporeans are against gays/homosexuals; do you mean that the minority can be ignored and SHOULD be ignored; hence; other groups of minorities such as disabled people or that of other minority ethnicities should be ignored as well?
Personally, I feel that this act’s about a basic human right to freedom of discrimination. Even if the govt said they wouldn’t enforce the law on homosexuals, the law is still symbolic to those affected.
I really really wished it was a choice…..I wonder why would i choose to be different from everyone of my friends , have no chances of children of my own , suffer all insults , jokes and discrimination , never be able to marry the person i love , go against most monotheist religions , be ostricized by my own family and my clan.
If it were only a choice…….i would never choose to be gay. But the fact is I am.
and yes Choices didn’t help very much.
Repeal this law…its bad as incarcerating people for being different.
Does it make a difference? Those who respect Gays will still do so and those who does not will still not even if the law is changed. Is really all about the perception and mindset of the individuals here.
Equality? Singaporean still gets their rights as Singaporean and PRs, Foreigners etc have their own rights as well. Gays are still doing their gay thing now.
Don’t waste time on this. Your video is good, do a video on myanmar gov crack down lar
*Sigh* I don’t have the brilliant insight some of the posters above have displayed over the debate, but I do have some questions.
If the law’s existence doesn’t make a difference why is it still in place? A perpetual threat to keep male homosexuals in check? I somehow get the impression that some of those who support the law are afraid male homosexuals will run wild in Singapore? I don’t quite understand why, in a state that emphasizes on education, there are those who fall back so easily on dehumanizing a group they don’t particularly like, just so they can justify any action against them.
I think it’s important this law is repealed. Think about the “gay panic defence” and how it’s allowed for the brutal murders of homosexuals. Matthew Shepard comes to mind. Laws that discriminate can easily become a justification for hate crimes against the parties discriminated against. I’d imagine that 377A would serve as a mitigating factor in the case of the perpetrators of the crime.
I think one thing most people forget about Religion is that it cannot be forced onto others. It’s a matter of choice. Christianity and Islam, two of the most influential religions in the world clearly advocate this. I’m also confused about the argument of a “sinful” culture being made mainstream if gay men were given more freedom to privately express their affection (and/or desire) for each other. Isn’t part of faith resisting temptation and sin for yourself? Frankly, if heterosexuals, and the pious think that heterosexuality is natural and right and feel that anything else is straying from the path, shouldn’t they feel secure from the influence of homosexuals? To look at it another way, if the idea of the “negative influence” of homosexuals had as much impact as the proponents of this idea suggest, then wouldn’t Singapore’s anti- homosexual laws and predominantly homophobic attitudes have eradicated homosexuality?
I don’t think that people can’t preach against it, I just don’t think we should set laws that permit physical action against homosexuals.
Like I said, I’m no expert on the topic, but these things just came to mind when reading these comments.
I haven’t done my lookups on whether the vast majority of other research on homosexuality concludes that sexuality can be chosen, but from the article, your evidence, that you posted, I point out that it is from NARTH–and I stress the TH part of the acronym: Therapy of Homosexuals. Most, if not I guess all, of its other articles only lopsidedly and negatively portray homosexuals.
Moreover, even though the sources referenced in the article concluded that it is not (only) genetics–the twins study was convincing–and you argue that therefore people are not born that way, they don’t have a choice; researchers agreed that environment/personality/temperament play a large role in influencing their sexuality. From a child to an adult, can one control his/her environment, the way s/he was brought up? I am not saying it’s the parents’ fault or what not. An infinite number of variables shape a person.
Also, many of the sources are more than ten years old, so the article is not up-to-date with the latest advances.
To: NS
If you want a facade of heterosexuality, put it on and no one would know you’re gay. Psychology is a fascinating thing, and maybe you will find that you _are_ or at least will have turned straight, as those treatments for homosexuals claim. If you really wish it was a choice, make that choice. There _is_ a choice. Just, I believe, whether you will be happy or not.
* * *
Going back to the main topic:
I have lived in Singapore for twelve years (my family is based there) and I am heartened to see some Singaporeans strongly protesting against anti-equality–anti-homosexuality. This is a small, but significant step towards what bhwolf said above: “We would like to be able to walk down the streets holding hands without eliciting disgust and hatred.”
I’m Catholic and even though my religion says its wrong, it never mentions who I can and cannot love. The younger generation are not so stupid to believe everything they see or hear. We can think for ourselves.
Its easy for anyone outside the kind of crap we’re subjected to from society when its never really happened to you, to criticize. Discrmination, no matter over what, is discrimination. And I don’t need to tell anybody that that is wrong.
Rachel and NS, I agree with yall. We aren’t this way by choice. I for one have accepted being a homosexual and am happy with the way I am. It is not a choice. How can anyone choose which gender to be sexually attracted to? If anyone can tell me you can force yourself to get aroused by looking at a person of same gender as you, then I will shut up.
Ray LOL, we arent born gay. Circumstance in our lives sorta made us the way we are. Circumstances beyond our control and often without our knowledge.
Spade, I don’t care about the part of society that discriminates against me, because obviously they don’t care since they discriminate. I do care however, about all the people I know, who refuse to use my sexuality as a means to bring me down, all the friends who would still hang with me despite my sexual orientation, race, gender or religion, the family who loves me and can accept who I am. This doesn’t seem like a fight to me. Merely people expressing unhappiness about something. If we wanted a fight, I’m sure there are other more violent ways to do this =.=”
i’m not as eloquent as many of the people with comments.
i’m not a mature sage with words of wisdom in forms of elaborate languages.
but i feel that s377a is utterly ridiculous.
discrimination is disgusting.
i have always wondered why are gay people so “different” from their straight counterparts (other than them preferring members of the same sex/gender).
in singapore, straight people have 5 senses, a body, a mind, emotions, needs and rights.
so do gay people.
however. homosexual people seem to have less rights. s377a serves to confirm that.
are gay people undeserving?
one might argue that if s377a is repealed, homosexuals will now have a reason to “demand” that they deserve other rights that are exclusive to heterosexuals: marriage, adoption rights, etc.
could i, then, say that the section will serve as societies reason to further discriminate against homosexuals/deny them of their rights?
the fact is, the gay community does deserve the same rights as everyone. repealing s377a is acknowledging that each unique homo(sapien) is entitled to the same rights.
is there a difference between persecuting someone of another race/colour/gender and persecuting someone of a different sexual orientation?
if, for example, the chinese community (75.2% of the population) in singapore decides that sexual acts between members of the other communities are to be illegal, would that be fair?
Gay sex is just not right! It is as wrong as having sex with a child or sex with an animal. If one can argue that they are born to be gay and cannot exercise their choice, ain’t that going to be the paedophiles’ arguement too? So are we going to legalise everything that is in the penal codes that are deemed illegal? Then there is really no need for a legal system since the society is so ‘mature’.
Are they capable of reproducing and fulfilling their god given, nature-driven task of reproduction?
While the country is encouraging people to reproduce so as to ensure that we have enough babies to drive the economy, are they able to raise up to the call?
when they are old, who is going to take care of them? it might be ok if they are rich? but what if they are just ordinary folks? Are we going to spend tax-payer’s money on these people who refuse to fulfill obligation to mankind?
Homosexuals has been around for thousands of years, its not something new, but even as of now, they are generally not being accepted, why?
simply, this is not the society wants and not what the society need.
I admire the effort this group of super talented artistes has made to produce the video. It is fun and upbeat.
But this video begs a fundamental question:
Why a stylised rap song? What repeat ‘eh’ and “repeal it’ like some teaser trailer for a promotional video?
You have a cast of the most outspoken and visible artistes who each have a personal voice. They can verbalise the thoughts for those who can’t find the right words for an archaic law that separates ‘us’ from ‘them’.
Speak your honest thoughts, let your own voice be heard and don’t confine yourselves to rapping a tired message.
That said, it’s still a good video Could be more content, less style though.
Looking at our pledge, it brings me a great irony at the sentence ‘based on justice and equality’. Why should they even have the cheek to mention ‘equality’ when homosexuals are still discriminated till today? When the pledge mentions equality, it means all aspects…even sexual orientations! In fact, some of the comments about gays and lesbians that I hear from friends who are homophobic really disgust me to the core..like ’stone all gays to death’ or ‘wipe the world free of gays’. This is tantamount to how Hitler wanted the Jews to be wiped off as how it was in World War II. I understand that not everybody is used to homosexuality and they want to carry on with their normal life. True, I won’t force them into supporting homosexuality then. But to give virulently homophobic comments that are unwarranted about the homosexual community in Singapore is akin to Hitler’s intolerance to people whom he considered undesirable and not fit of his ‘master race’.
After viewing the clip, I was wondering what was their(the so called local celeb) agenda. I was quite surprise they even lent their name to this cause. It has definitely make me see them in a different light here on.
That aside, pretty much agree with what David says (12 Oct 2007, 12.01pm) on how it has been played out in the West, once this is down(377a), next will be same sex marriage, after that will be rights to adoption, all in the name of equality. Will be a sad day for Singapore.
what is the definition of homosexuality? members of the same sex being sexually attracted to each other right? if so, then 337A in forbiding all gay men from having sex is legally forcing all gay men to remain virgins until they die. isn’t that a denial of human rights? to deny a human from having sex? either way. the law is unfair and unjust.
oh wait, i forgot, all around the world, people are being discriminated. the blacks, the jews, the mexicians. why not singapore just follow suit? i mean the entire world loves to discriminate people, why not singapore just follow everyone else?
if singapore really wants to stand out and be a unique country in which people of all races, religion, cultures and sexuality are being respected, we need to start here. right now.
David Lim: Regardless of whether it will played out like in the West, not repealing 377a IS A DISCRIMINATION against homosexuals. So what if it played out like in the West? Preventing it to be played out like in the west is again DISCRIMINATION. In fact, a bigger and more obvious discrimination! So regardless of the consequence, not repealing it is a discrimination. And why do you reckon it will be a sad day for Singapore, when you are not affected in anyway?
james: you may be right that paedophiles may use that as an excuse, but have you ever try to put yourself in the shoes of the gays? Do you really think they have nothing better to do and want to be discriminated, want to like the same sex? So what if paedophiles use that as an excuse too, you asked. Well, as you know, laws are there to protect people. Having laws against paedophiles (regardless genetic or not) seeks to protect children. But here, may I ask, in what way or who does 377A seeks to protect? Protect the selfishness of the majority, who dont understand and will never seem to understand why gays are gays? To protect the intolerance of the majority who are not affected negatively in anyways by the repeal? Think again!
To others:
Me myself is conservative like the majority. But I wont say I am straight, neither do I like the way I am. I hate myself as who I am, I dont want to be who I am, to disappoint families and not having children. I want children. I love children. And I seriously hope I am straight and hope that I like girls. But it has never been the case. Simply likes and dislikes cannot be forced.
Girls never seems to appeal me or arouse me, no matter how hard I try. I can keep on trying to bluff myself that I like girls, but I dont. I dont understand what is so appealing in a girl, and how a girl turns straight guys on, except that I love my mum. On the other hand, I cant stop looking at guys. They seemed so much more appealing, and everything about a guy seems to turn me on. No matter how I tell myself not to, no matter how guilty I feel doing it, no matter how I feel it is wrong doing it, how I feel it is wrong liking a guy, nothing changes. Likes cannot be changed as you want it to. Just like none of the straight out there can turn to gays. Think again, can you force yourself to like the same sex, if you dont like? Can you?
My belief is (and also as how Kinsey puts it) everyone is in this range of scale between gay and straight. No one is perfectly straight and no one is perfectly gay. Hence the existence of also bisexual. There is no clear boundary between gays and straight. The area is gray. If you think you are perfectly straight, then think about it: Do you really never ever have even a slightest attraction to the same sex? I believe you do have, but later put off that thought by your “more straight” trait, and is probably too insignificant for you to understand your fellow friends at the other end of the scale. Likewise, I dont understand why straight people are straight too. So why should there be a discrimination by distinctly labelling one as gay and deny them of the equal rights they deserve? Imagine the situation: What if being straight is a minority and the gays are discriminating against you? Will you grow to become gay then? Will you start to stop having the disgusting thoughts about guys loving guys then? Most likely NO. The same is true the other way round.
Actually, I am neither supportive of gays nor against it. Like I have said, I am also conservative. Being gay is “not normal” and not good in my opinion, as I really wished to be part of the mainstream who are straight and lead a “normal life”. But I cannot choose who I want to be when I am not even offered the chance by nature to choose. Just like many other gays in this conservative society, I may and most likely, in the end, ended up (under pressure) marrying a girl (that I can get along well), have children and accepted by society, family and narrow-minded individuals who do not tolerate gay. This may be considered by the mainstream to be the ideal and a happy ending. But if you think again, first of all, the guy is not leading a happy life and secondly the girl’s life is ruined. She has married a man who doesnt love her at all, a man who has all along only loved her as a good friend, not that kind of true love. Well, you could argue that true love can be developed, but do you really think so? mind you, true love may not even be developed between 2 straights.
Now I believe, it is quite clear, forcing the gays to turn straight by retaining 377A is not going to lead to a happy ending in anyway. Gays should not be discriminated and given the same rights as all others. Repealing 377A on the other hand, does not lead to any justifiable negative consequence either. In fact, when we read through all the posts above, and think through them carefully and unbiasedly, you will realised (and get disgusted) that those calling to retain 377A are really discriminative and selfish. They have nothing to lose if 377A got repealed sucessfully. They simply wish gays to be jailed to be gone far away from them (discrimination). Mind you, there are a high number of gays who seems straight or act straight. So, you already have a number of such friends and you dont know who. On ther other hand, those calling for a repeal have every right. They only wish to be treated equally. It is such a simple yet denied wish.
I must say, I was neutral about whether to repeal 377A, as I have said, I DONT WISH TO BE GAY. I am not straight, but I REFUSE to admit I am gay too. This is what the conservative society have made me to be. Girls dont appeal me, but neither am I ready to accept who I am and get into any relationship with a guy. But guys really appeals me much more. That explains my neutrality. Nevertheless, after reading through all the posts above, I do agree that 377A is a complete discrimination that doesnt makes any sense. As rubbish as the chewing gum ban, which protects no one, in any sense, positively. 377A have to be repealed!
Re: comparison of being gay to paedophilia and beastiality. Consider whether having sexual relations with a child and an animal are on similar terms as a consenting relationship between 2 adults. It is hard to justify that a child/animal can consent to having sex with an adult, hence to frown on such unequal relations would be rather universal. However, for an equal relationship that is being discriminated on the basis of an irrational fear (eg do you really think ppl wanna “erode your family values” and turn straight people gay?), how do they match up?
Re: reproduction. Mankind is overpopulating the planet. True maybe here in little SG, gahmen says we need more people. But the planet certainly does not. In any case, it would be quite silly to discriminate against people who do not reproduce, straight or gay. Even sillier to suggest that reproduction a measure of deserving goodies from the govt. We might else well propose a Anti-Laziness Act, for all those who don’t achieve their targets and hence contribute less to the economy (die slackers!).
Finally, I doubt one can survive in Singapore if you are just relying on taxpayers money for old age! ;p
Homosexuality has been around since the early times.
In the bible, God has told everyone to be accepting of everyone irregardless of who or what they are, but yet he condemned the men who tried to force his messengers into having sex.
Yes, it is indeed wrong to force people to engage in same sex activities, but if it’s on a mutual consensus by both parties, why is there a need to criminalise these acts and let it be considered “dirty”?
If we can accept and forgive people for their wrongdoings and accept them for who they are, why can’t we accept the fact that someone; your friend, your cousin, your loved one, is a homosexual?
Repeal 377A. It could actually make a difference in your life and others.
I am a happily married man with a 9 month old son. I love many things about living in Singapore but simply cannot understand why a nation which celebrates racial tolerance can be so intolerant towards sexual diversity. I had no more choice over my heterosexuality than my homosexual friends had in relation to their sexuality. Singapore really needs to get with the rest of the civilised world and repeal this ongoing international embarassment.
I can’t understand what is so controversial about allowing fellow Singaporeans to live in Singapore free from the fear of prosecution and imprisonment for up to 2 years for physically expressing an undeniable part of themselves, with regard to something they have no choice about. Who am I to pronounce judgement on people? Who am I to pronounce judgement on gay men, just because they are gay and just because they are MEN?
I wish people thought harder about what it is they are saying about themselves when they object to the repeal of s 377A. Just because you are 1. part of the majority and/or 2. have the power over other people to govern how they live or face the consequences does NOT mean that you have the right to dictate the terms of how they live: it places upon you a RESPONSIBILITY to THINK and act how YOU would like to be treated yourself.
Homosexuality is a disease, and can be fully cured with therapy and hormonal injection, counselling etc. Please use your effort to help the lost souls..
Men kissing men on the street; men holding hands with men in public; men performs oral sex and anus sex to another men. Yes, these are consenting adults, but do these behaviours sound right to normal human being ? Physically, human body is not design for same sex having sex. Anus sex will cause loss of bowel control, that means gay men will s*** in their pants. Anus is design for passing motion, not sex. Human body is designed for procreations, that means sex should be between a man and a woman.
This is not about discriminations, this is not about majority’s views, this is not about depriving minority’s rights, this is not about consenting adults, this is not about lack of tolerence of others’ lifestyle, this is not about being conservative. This is about the law of nature and deep in our heart , our conscience and our instint tell us that gay sex is wrong. This is as wrong as two consenting adults having incestious relationship.
If the law allows gay sex, how about incest between two consenting adults ? Will anyone in this forum claims that making incest a crime is a discrimination and will fight for this group minority’s rights ? Even the gay knows gay sex is wrong deep in their heart, though they are doing it, with guilt.
Dr Lim:
Well, how I hope it is a disease and can be cured with medicine. But whether gay is inborn is a controversial issues among the straights. They will never understand until one day it is scientifically proven and publicised. And even then, it is still not hard to find people who believe gay are not inborn. Only the gays can tell you, they are inborn.
One example of a similar case is whether a person is left or right handed. People always argue that left-handedness is caused by habits, but it is really the genes. Even after it has been scientifically proven, there still exist stubborn individual that believe it is caused by habits. Some parents or even worst, teachers, force the children to use right-hand, in believing that right-handedness have to be cultivated. But they didnt know, that not only they are doing the wrong thing, but it can also result undesirable impact on the children. Only a left-handed person will understand that he is born left-handed, similarly for the gays… and yes, I am left-handed.
Homosexuality is never a disease to begin with, unless you perceive it as one. How would you feel if I tell you heterosexuality is a disease and it must be cured?
The thing is, if you are a homophobe, admit and deal with it. Just stop being selfish and narrow minded. There is more to this world than your one-sided point of view.
What dicifers law of nature?
What decifers pure sex?
Ultimately, you get to decide it all.
The fact is your decision is completely based on your point of view, the topic is never right or wrong. Moreover, you stated that it is between consenting adults, that are fully rational of their actions. Why are so paranoid since it does not posses any threats to you?
On the contrary, sex between homosexuals and incest are totally different issues. So please stop comparing gays as to anything you can get hold of as something “immoral”.
Straights like you ppl practice oral and anal sex to your female counterparts as well, and for the record, that oral sex amongst straights has been legalised. How different is it as compared to the gay community?
The gay community comprises of our female counterparts as well.
Why not mention “what’s wrong between girls kissing girls?”, besides nothing is really wrong unless you see it so.
Evidently, you just portray your discomfort against gay males.
However if you are unaware of the fact that homosexuality is not all about a man to man having sex, it invovles real lives of people (coping with prejudices from ppl like you and trying adapt to society, hoping to be accepted for who we really are) within this society and is happening around you. Whether you like it or not.
The catch is, you STILL directing it as a form of discrimination and inequality since stating your dismay.
Once again, stop staying in your puiny little box with your sheltered thoughts of your “pure values”, open up the cover and look whats happening around you.
Do people consider gays and their actions as negative externalities? Do people actually suffer if gay sex is allowed? Do I turn gay just because I see two men holding hands/kissing?
Since I do not know much about the psyche, I guess it’s hard to comment on such issues…
I personally find that kind of behaviour disgusting…but it’s their life…so why should my views affect them…
sad 1……..just because god created adam and eve. We had to live thru life as it is….what if god created adam and adam or maybe eve and eve.
sad 2…..so “Anus sex will cause loss of bowel control, that means gay men will s*** in their pants. Anus is design for passing motion, not sex” Why does the goverment had repeal anal sex between hetersexual. So its alright for women who had that to s**t in their pants as well…or maybe the “norm” way to have sex will have uncontrol “peeing” effects ? its ok?
Common la….world peace….its not gonna kill you if u have self control over it. we are all human……law is created by human….period…
The reality is, the government is unlikely to repeal the section out of the blue. Unfortunately, it is not as simple as petitioning a government and hoping that something will be done about it immediately as this website states (repeal 377a NOW!).
As for my view, I take the realist approach to all things. (ie, more a negative / pessimistic view). I doubt a repeal will come in the near future, however, if i may quote Voltaire (although some argue that he did not say the following words), “I do not agree with what you have to say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it”
So yes, to those that set up this website, good luck in trying to get the section repealed! I may not totally agree with it, but we all have core rights and ultimately, society will work itself out eventually.
Reading some of the comments on this site, has made me realise for all the wonderful economic growth Singapore has undergone in the past 20 years, some minds are literally still in the kampongs. What a shame. What a sad sad shame…
I left Singapore 12 years ago, because I refused to be criminalised by a law that I know to have no legal foundation. Adultery also undermines society in a way religion believes, as does sex before marriage too. Yet neither of these are enshrined in the law as criminal behaviour. Ask yourselves why the double-standard and bare faced hypocrisy?
All I know is I will never return to Singapore because my gay partner and myself have rights here in the UK. We live together under a civil partnership and in Singapore our long term relationship would have no recognition.
It is a sad day when I hear ignorant Singaporeans who have received a first class education system spouting sheer hatred and anger towards people they don’t even know!
I thought within a decade this country of ours would enter modernity on an equal footing with civilised nations. It may have a decent GDP, but boy are some people still living in the dark ages.
Don’t compare to Western society 1st. In Asia country which lead by majority Chinese comunity like Hong Kong & Taiwan already abolished Act 377A years ago. When is the time that S’pore want to move on to new era?
It’s final, the decision has been made and both sides have aired the issues. As with any public debate between the minority and the majority, the controversy had revolved around repealing 377A, not 377.
What if, and it’s only a ‘what if’, someone imagines an art project that we take a retroactive step to retain Section 377? A hypothetical website could be for example “www.keep377.com”.
Now that would be something to muse over. Respectfully of course.
it’s difficult growing up gay hiding in a cloak of secrecy about our own sexuality. it’s hurting to love someone and the reason you cant be together because the other claimed that neither is one of the opposite gender. it’s tiring to play gender neutrality all the time. i’m sick of being assexual. come on! why impose a law on what ppl do behind bedroom doors unless you intend to film it? am i less deserving of love and sex because i’m gay? In this material world, i’m paying taxes and working my ass off. As a daughter, i’m filial and look after my family. am i less deserving than a heterosexual woman just because i don’t love a man and reproduce? at least let us have a right to buy a flat at 30.
I don’t understand why equality has to be such a wiry topic for some people.
We’re not asking for your understanding, nor to be accepted, or invited into your homes. We’re not asking that you like us. We are asking that the government treat its citizens fairly, and equally. The state cannot allow rule of majority to be the main thrust of its legislation coherence. It’s gang mentality at best. The issue is thorny, sure, but ignoring it is cowardly.
The people of the state are allowed their bias, but the state should not be allowed to codify that bias into national policy. Read the literature - how are you going to be judged in history?
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October 11th, 2007 at 7:47 pm
Thanks to all in the video for your support!!
October 11th, 2007 at 11:15 pm
[…] Oct 12th, 2007 by vegancatsg Repeal 377A, NOW! The Video Clip […]
October 12th, 2007 at 12:52 am
Equality is a term is used by people of many disjointed political philosophies developed separately by political activists.
This is about our societal view about gay lifestyles. Repealing the Act has one fundamental impact, it means that we accept the lifestyle as mainstream. Just like if we approve other behaviours like drug abuse. Do they hurt others? Yes and no, it is arguable. But it is clearly frowned upon by society at large. What does that say? It says it goes against the grain of our moral beliefs.
Morality refers to an ideal code of conduct, one which would be espoused in preference to alternatives by all rational people, under specified conditions. Therefore, if society considers gay lifestyle immoral, then it cannot approve of it in the laws which reflects our core beliefs.
Unfortunately, this website is a reflection of a minority, who has great power over the sphere of media. God help us all.
October 12th, 2007 at 3:23 am
Morality is a term used by some people to obfuscate prejudices, hide discrimination and dodge logical consideration of what is just or not.
This is not only about our society’s view about homosexuality, it is about treating every human being as equals. Repealing 377a does not mean that you personally condone homosexuality. Instead it makes a statement about tolerance in our society. It is the very same tolerance that allows you to hold the view that the “gay lifestyle” is frowned upon that we are seeking.
If society largely frowns upon homosexuality, then it merely does. The consideration does not make homosexuality neither moral nor immoral. That decision lies with a individual’s belief system or religion. What is needed is for a Christian to allow a place for Islam in our society as much as homosexuality. A diversity of beliefs do not necessitate blatant discrimination.
Even if homosexuals are a minority, the tyranny of the majority should not subjugate us. The only moral and just stand is to repeal 377a. God helps us all, not God help us all.
Regards
Colin
October 12th, 2007 at 11:42 am
Well said Colin,
Throughout history, there has been horrible discrimination -racial, political, and gender. If the majority had its way and forced its views on society, we would still have widespread slavery and genocide, and women would be treated as slaves (in some countries, these atrocities still occur).
People are entitled to their views, but just because they think they have the support of the majority, doesn’t make them right (or give them the right to feel righteous). Tolerance and equality need to replace discrimination. 377A needs to be repealed.
October 12th, 2007 at 11:45 am
Oh, forgot to say what a cool video it is. Great job!! Many thanks!!
October 12th, 2007 at 12:01 pm
My friend,
I think we are just scratching the surface. What is the real agenda? Where will it end? If this Act is repealed, what’s next? Recognition as equal sex status, legislation against employment bias, same sex marriage, right to adopt? This has played out very well in the West, and for those more informed, the path ahead is clear.
It is not about subjugation, because no homosexuals has been jailed for being homosexuals in Singapore. It is about getting the society to believe you are deserving of equal right, and silencing those who dissent. It is about putting it into law, so that even those who believe that such behaviour is sin cannot object. It is about educating a new MTV generation that your agenda is right, and ours is wrong.
At the end, we are only against the behaviour. Not against the person. The Act, not the Actor.
October 12th, 2007 at 1:00 pm
That was brilliant , now if only we can actually get this video out to the masses……
October 12th, 2007 at 3:58 pm
The only agenda is for homosexuals not to live under the shroud of a criminal offence, which Section 377A serves to enforce, for a life of their own free will, which does not concern anyone else.
The existence of this penal code will precisely be “against the Actor”, because then, the law would have every reason to call the “Actor” to account. And note, it is a criminal offence, which is the most severe of all offences. For that which is intrinsically a moral or social issue, the weight of legal prosecution is not only unfair, but completely incongruous.
Adultery is unequivocably sinful, as upheld in Christian conviction. Even with other major religious beliefs, it is deemed undoubtedly immoral. It has far-reaching social consequences which threaten our social fabric, but there is no legislation against it. So why this?
Repealing the penal code for an act (oral and anal sex) for one cross- section of the population (the heterosexual community), while retaining it as a criminal offence for another (the homosexual community), is nothing but discrimination.
The homosexual community is not trying to determine who is right and who is wrong, just basic recognition that they can live the lives they have chosen without prejudice or discrimination.
The homosexual community will probably continue to be frowned upon by the vast majority. Social marginalisation will continue to persist, through insidious nuances which we have all, unfortunately, come to accept whether we like it or not. We certainly do not need to be marginalised further by legal discrimination.
October 12th, 2007 at 5:56 pm
Just what is the fear that informs this paranoia?
Recognition as equal sex status, legislation against employment bias, same sex marriage, right to adopt… just what exactly is wrong with all these?
The only things being threatened here perhaps are antiquated ideals of living handed down over generations.
Why are not lucid consenting adults free to choose towards whom and how to express their love?
We are not forcing those who are unwilling to partake in our lifestyle. We never have. We are simply recognizing that like anyone else, we too have the right to choose to live a life that makes sense for us, and are simply asking for that right. In that, you are I are not so very different.
It is not enough to simply concede that the Government does not actively persecute mutually consenting gay sex in private venues. By your denial of our right to equality, you are blanketing us, presumably because you fear that repealing 377a will threaten your lifestyle / worldview / beliefs?
Do you know that you are essentially saying : just because we choose different bedmates we are somehow deficient, lacking and unworthy? Now try saying that to the face of someone else of a different race from yours, and watch what happens. For full effect, pick someone bigger.
Nobody here is saying that in recognizing our rights, you are somehow wrong. You are free to hold your beliefs. But to act on them and act out against others who hold different views from you is surely something altogether different? Have you considered deeply why another human being will think nothing of strapping bombs to themselves and running into a crowd of strangers who have personally done them no wrong? No my friend, its not because of that “100-virgins” promise.
Oh I suppose its simple: they’re “wrong”. or mistaken. or lost. or misguided. In any case they need “saving”.
We don’t need your pity, we don’t need saving. We however would like very much your respect and love as a fellow human being. We would like to be able to walk down the streets holding hands without eliciting disgust and hatred.
Where will it end? It ends when you realize that if you don’t like hamsters, then choose not to keep one. That part is easy. Now the hard part: Allow those who do like hamsters to keep as many as they want to as long as they do so in a safe, responsible way in which neither party is harmed.
My friend, what is your real agenda?
October 13th, 2007 at 12:50 am
It’s so ironic that of the 10 entries here, 2 are by homophobes. Makes one wonder why they ever came to this website anyway.
And even then, their rhetoric, over used, insubstantial and so amusingly irrational. But it is not unexpected.
Majority of Singaporeans are against homosexuality (or so they say). But majority of them have also undergone the same education, been with the same people, done the same thing and lived the same lives. Too many Singaporeans are Singaporeans. Too many of them are narrow minded.
In the end, what truly matters is that we are happy with who we are. The stupid people will kill themselves off anyway, right?
October 13th, 2007 at 2:23 am
Thank you all the artist to help us to repeal the rights for gay…..
Where is the rest of ‘our people’? If you don’t stand up now, it wil be never….. Please think about it, just a simple of your signature and tell your friends. Let’s get free together..
October 13th, 2007 at 3:21 am
Frankly speaking, morals are a personal thing. My personal morals tell me that the most criminal act anyone can commit is forcing others to live by their morals and not be free to live their lives the way they want. I am NOT a Christian. I do not believe in a God that would exclude or punish one of it’s creations just for being.
Our brother David seems to think that everyone should understand his personal morals, while not trying to understand anyone else’s. David… homosexuality has existed far longer than your religion. It is here and always has been. At some points in history it was even held in high regard. As a superlative sort of love. Just because your religion and others like it have been accepted as mainstream… does not mean that they are the only real or respected views.
The Singaporean constitution clearly states equality for all. ALL of it’s citizens. It is not only unfair to allow this law to exist, it is an embarrassment for a country as advanced as Singapore to allow such an archaic and absurd code to exist in this century. Stand up, and grow up. Do what is right, not for yourself but for ALL of Singapore, and repeal this code.
October 13th, 2007 at 7:38 am
LGBT Rights is Human Rights!
October 13th, 2007 at 9:32 am
but why does the law only apply to men?
October 13th, 2007 at 10:20 am
I was wondering if there’s even a need to get oneself ‘accepted’ in the 1st place? The government most certainly dun give a shit about our existence in specifics… and we most certainly have a choice not to live by their textbooks of penis codes and whatever. So why the big fuss?
Discrimination never ends, whether if you’re a woman,man,gay,les,bi,some other race other than mine, fat, anorexic, fashion disaster, loud-mouthed aunties, SM fanatics, or whatever. Cause our brains are mere limited shit that has to place stuff into categories properly in order to function ‘normally’.
Why not just start living and enjoying your lives rather than wasting your time on trying to change people’s views. I’m sure you guys will be a lot f*ckin happier =)
I’m packing up and going for some sun-bathing at Siloso beach, anyone interested?
peace.
October 13th, 2007 at 2:36 pm
I disagree on this repeal act, i believe that Majority of Singaporeans are against homosexuality, and Government is already making it clear that it will not act like a police to enforce this acts. I personally agree with this Act 377a. Go for it Singapore
October 13th, 2007 at 5:13 pm
Because there will be some who are satisfied by being accepted by a small, minority community but there are others who will only be satisfied when they can live the lives that the majority live. That means getting married and being recognised as a legit couple, having the rights to have children or apply for public housing etcetc.
do u think women would have even gotten the right to vote without making a “big fuss”? I doubt so.. Even the current underground openness of SG society today cannot be the product of just laying low and enjoying life quietly.
So it’s fine if ppl wanna just go sun-bathing, but why diss those that are trying to build a better future for themselves?
October 14th, 2007 at 11:44 am
Many things that we now take for granted, we could not do so years ago, if it wasn’t for the small victories that were won along the way.
Sometimes I don’t know what is more harmful, the blatant disregard from the hetetosexual community or the insidious apathy from the homosexual community that refuses to fight its own wars. And yet have the cheek to rest on those laurels that have been built by others who care enough to put in the effort to push for change.
No one is trying to challenge the government for the chance to put on our feather boas and march the streets of Orchard Road. We are merely trying to ascertain what’s rightfully ours…
And that is, to recognise our right to live our lifestyles without being branded as a criminal, regardless of what the moral stand of the country is. I am a law abiding citizen who dutifully pays my taxes, who will take up arms to protect the country if ever such a need arises. So at least respect me without branding me a criminal for the life I build for myself and my partner in the privacy of our own home.
And it is exactly when we are happy, well adjusted individuals living our lives to the fullest that we realise that there are some things in life that are worth fighting for.
October 14th, 2007 at 3:46 pm
People cannot help the way they are born.
You are either Gay or not Gay. And shold not be punished for something nature decided
October 15th, 2007 at 3:32 am
I would like to apologise if my views have been sounding really ignorant, that it is likely caused by my inability to understand the magnitude of the issue, and most likely not being a gay myself. Mental capacity side, I guess it also very much about how much weight one place on how others look at oneself, and that I don’t really give a shit about how the government feels about me, but I forgot the fact that it might not be so for many others.
Due to my religon’s practice, I do not believe in wars and change initiated by force, no matter which sides I take to be right. Rather, I believe in change initiated through understanding, but I forget again that not all may see eye-to-eye. The assumption I have on the right order for change should start from the people, leading to the government adopting the consensus view, and ending with such unfair laws like this particular penal code being repealed naturally as a result of the process. Anger leads to a response of anger, war leads to more wars, I for one, do not desire such an outcome. In principal it works, but I may be just merely naive with such an ideal. I leave that for your consideration.
I will be signing the petition, in hope that it is a rightful action, and that the action is well worth the consequences and will lead to the right effect.
October 15th, 2007 at 7:17 am
Hi Sir,
Get your facts correct !! It is not proven that people are born gay.
Please check this link, to those who has some questions please read this link.
http://www.narth.com/docs/innate.html
You don’t born to be gay, It is a choice….!!
October 16th, 2007 at 1:02 pm
It isn’t a choice for fun.
No-one wake up one day and go, “I want to be gay, and enjoy narrow-minded people discriminating against me every single day, yay.”
If you say that majority of Singaporeans are against gays/homosexuals; do you mean that the minority can be ignored and SHOULD be ignored; hence; other groups of minorities such as disabled people or that of other minority ethnicities should be ignored as well?
Personally, I feel that this act’s about a basic human right to freedom of discrimination. Even if the govt said they wouldn’t enforce the law on homosexuals, the law is still symbolic to those affected.
October 17th, 2007 at 12:31 pm
I really really wished it was a choice…..I wonder why would i choose to be different from everyone of my friends , have no chances of children of my own , suffer all insults , jokes and discrimination , never be able to marry the person i love , go against most monotheist religions , be ostricized by my own family and my clan.
If it were only a choice…….i would never choose to be gay. But the fact is I am.
and yes Choices didn’t help very much.
Repeal this law…its bad as incarcerating people for being different.
October 18th, 2007 at 3:25 am
Does it make a difference? Those who respect Gays will still do so and those who does not will still not even if the law is changed. Is really all about the perception and mindset of the individuals here.
Equality? Singaporean still gets their rights as Singaporean and PRs, Foreigners etc have their own rights as well. Gays are still doing their gay thing now.
Don’t waste time on this. Your video is good, do a video on myanmar gov crack down lar
October 18th, 2007 at 12:42 pm
*Sigh* I don’t have the brilliant insight some of the posters above have displayed over the debate, but I do have some questions.
If the law’s existence doesn’t make a difference why is it still in place? A perpetual threat to keep male homosexuals in check? I somehow get the impression that some of those who support the law are afraid male homosexuals will run wild in Singapore? I don’t quite understand why, in a state that emphasizes on education, there are those who fall back so easily on dehumanizing a group they don’t particularly like, just so they can justify any action against them.
I think it’s important this law is repealed. Think about the “gay panic defence” and how it’s allowed for the brutal murders of homosexuals. Matthew Shepard comes to mind. Laws that discriminate can easily become a justification for hate crimes against the parties discriminated against. I’d imagine that 377A would serve as a mitigating factor in the case of the perpetrators of the crime.
I think one thing most people forget about Religion is that it cannot be forced onto others. It’s a matter of choice. Christianity and Islam, two of the most influential religions in the world clearly advocate this. I’m also confused about the argument of a “sinful” culture being made mainstream if gay men were given more freedom to privately express their affection (and/or desire) for each other. Isn’t part of faith resisting temptation and sin for yourself? Frankly, if heterosexuals, and the pious think that heterosexuality is natural and right and feel that anything else is straying from the path, shouldn’t they feel secure from the influence of homosexuals? To look at it another way, if the idea of the “negative influence” of homosexuals had as much impact as the proponents of this idea suggest, then wouldn’t Singapore’s anti- homosexual laws and predominantly homophobic attitudes have eradicated homosexuality?
I don’t think that people can’t preach against it, I just don’t think we should set laws that permit physical action against homosexuals.
Like I said, I’m no expert on the topic, but these things just came to mind when reading these comments.
October 19th, 2007 at 1:41 am
To: new1
I haven’t done my lookups on whether the vast majority of other research on homosexuality concludes that sexuality can be chosen, but from the article, your evidence, that you posted, I point out that it is from NARTH–and I stress the TH part of the acronym: Therapy of Homosexuals. Most, if not I guess all, of its other articles only lopsidedly and negatively portray homosexuals.
Moreover, even though the sources referenced in the article concluded that it is not (only) genetics–the twins study was convincing–and you argue that therefore people are not born that way, they don’t have a choice; researchers agreed that environment/personality/temperament play a large role in influencing their sexuality. From a child to an adult, can one control his/her environment, the way s/he was brought up? I am not saying it’s the parents’ fault or what not. An infinite number of variables shape a person.
Also, many of the sources are more than ten years old, so the article is not up-to-date with the latest advances.
To: NS
If you want a facade of heterosexuality, put it on and no one would know you’re gay. Psychology is a fascinating thing, and maybe you will find that you _are_ or at least will have turned straight, as those treatments for homosexuals claim. If you really wish it was a choice, make that choice. There _is_ a choice. Just, I believe, whether you will be happy or not.
* * *
Going back to the main topic:
I have lived in Singapore for twelve years (my family is based there) and I am heartened to see some Singaporeans strongly protesting against anti-equality–anti-homosexuality. This is a small, but significant step towards what bhwolf said above: “We would like to be able to walk down the streets holding hands without eliciting disgust and hatred.”
Great work, keep it up.
October 19th, 2007 at 2:23 am
I’m Catholic and even though my religion says its wrong, it never mentions who I can and cannot love. The younger generation are not so stupid to believe everything they see or hear. We can think for ourselves.
Its easy for anyone outside the kind of crap we’re subjected to from society when its never really happened to you, to criticize. Discrmination, no matter over what, is discrimination. And I don’t need to tell anybody that that is wrong.
Rachel and NS, I agree with yall. We aren’t this way by choice. I for one have accepted being a homosexual and am happy with the way I am. It is not a choice. How can anyone choose which gender to be sexually attracted to? If anyone can tell me you can force yourself to get aroused by looking at a person of same gender as you, then I will shut up.
Ray LOL, we arent born gay. Circumstance in our lives sorta made us the way we are. Circumstances beyond our control and often without our knowledge.
Spade, I don’t care about the part of society that discriminates against me, because obviously they don’t care since they discriminate. I do care however, about all the people I know, who refuse to use my sexuality as a means to bring me down, all the friends who would still hang with me despite my sexual orientation, race, gender or religion, the family who loves me and can accept who I am. This doesn’t seem like a fight to me. Merely people expressing unhappiness about something. If we wanted a fight, I’m sure there are other more violent ways to do this =.=”
October 19th, 2007 at 4:41 am
I am a Christian. I am straight. I believe God love us so much to give us free choice, I believe everyone deserves the same.
October 19th, 2007 at 5:02 am
i’m not as eloquent as many of the people with comments.
i’m not a mature sage with words of wisdom in forms of elaborate languages.
but i feel that s377a is utterly ridiculous.
discrimination is disgusting.
i have always wondered why are gay people so “different” from their straight counterparts (other than them preferring members of the same sex/gender).
in singapore, straight people have 5 senses, a body, a mind, emotions, needs and rights.
so do gay people.
however. homosexual people seem to have less rights. s377a serves to confirm that.
are gay people undeserving?
one might argue that if s377a is repealed, homosexuals will now have a reason to “demand” that they deserve other rights that are exclusive to heterosexuals: marriage, adoption rights, etc.
could i, then, say that the section will serve as societies reason to further discriminate against homosexuals/deny them of their rights?
the fact is, the gay community does deserve the same rights as everyone. repealing s377a is acknowledging that each unique homo(sapien) is entitled to the same rights.
is there a difference between persecuting someone of another race/colour/gender and persecuting someone of a different sexual orientation?
if, for example, the chinese community (75.2% of the population) in singapore decides that sexual acts between members of the other communities are to be illegal, would that be fair?
it’s ridiculous, isn’t it?
October 19th, 2007 at 6:35 am
Gay sex is just not right! It is as wrong as having sex with a child or sex with an animal. If one can argue that they are born to be gay and cannot exercise their choice, ain’t that going to be the paedophiles’ arguement too? So are we going to legalise everything that is in the penal codes that are deemed illegal? Then there is really no need for a legal system since the society is so ‘mature’.
October 19th, 2007 at 8:15 am
why should gays be given equal rights?
Are they capable of reproducing and fulfilling their god given, nature-driven task of reproduction?
While the country is encouraging people to reproduce so as to ensure that we have enough babies to drive the economy, are they able to raise up to the call?
when they are old, who is going to take care of them? it might be ok if they are rich? but what if they are just ordinary folks? Are we going to spend tax-payer’s money on these people who refuse to fulfill obligation to mankind?
Homosexuals has been around for thousands of years, its not something new, but even as of now, they are generally not being accepted, why?
simply, this is not the society wants and not what the society need.
October 19th, 2007 at 8:51 am
I admire the effort this group of super talented artistes has made to produce the video. It is fun and upbeat.
But this video begs a fundamental question:
Why a stylised rap song? What repeat ‘eh’ and “repeal it’ like some teaser trailer for a promotional video?
You have a cast of the most outspoken and visible artistes who each have a personal voice. They can verbalise the thoughts for those who can’t find the right words for an archaic law that separates ‘us’ from ‘them’.
Speak your honest thoughts, let your own voice be heard and don’t confine yourselves to rapping a tired message.
That said, it’s still a good video Could be more content, less style though.
October 19th, 2007 at 9:57 am
Looking at our pledge, it brings me a great irony at the sentence ‘based on justice and equality’. Why should they even have the cheek to mention ‘equality’ when homosexuals are still discriminated till today? When the pledge mentions equality, it means all aspects…even sexual orientations! In fact, some of the comments about gays and lesbians that I hear from friends who are homophobic really disgust me to the core..like ’stone all gays to death’ or ‘wipe the world free of gays’. This is tantamount to how Hitler wanted the Jews to be wiped off as how it was in World War II. I understand that not everybody is used to homosexuality and they want to carry on with their normal life. True, I won’t force them into supporting homosexuality then. But to give virulently homophobic comments that are unwarranted about the homosexual community in Singapore is akin to Hitler’s intolerance to people whom he considered undesirable and not fit of his ‘master race’.
October 19th, 2007 at 1:32 pm
After viewing the clip, I was wondering what was their(the so called local celeb) agenda. I was quite surprise they even lent their name to this cause. It has definitely make me see them in a different light here on.
That aside, pretty much agree with what David says (12 Oct 2007, 12.01pm) on how it has been played out in the West, once this is down(377a), next will be same sex marriage, after that will be rights to adoption, all in the name of equality. Will be a sad day for Singapore.
October 19th, 2007 at 4:26 pm
what is the definition of homosexuality? members of the same sex being sexually attracted to each other right? if so, then 337A in forbiding all gay men from having sex is legally forcing all gay men to remain virgins until they die. isn’t that a denial of human rights? to deny a human from having sex? either way. the law is unfair and unjust.
oh wait, i forgot, all around the world, people are being discriminated. the blacks, the jews, the mexicians. why not singapore just follow suit? i mean the entire world loves to discriminate people, why not singapore just follow everyone else?
if singapore really wants to stand out and be a unique country in which people of all races, religion, cultures and sexuality are being respected, we need to start here. right now.
October 19th, 2007 at 11:17 pm
David Lim: Regardless of whether it will played out like in the West, not repealing 377a IS A DISCRIMINATION against homosexuals. So what if it played out like in the West? Preventing it to be played out like in the west is again DISCRIMINATION. In fact, a bigger and more obvious discrimination! So regardless of the consequence, not repealing it is a discrimination. And why do you reckon it will be a sad day for Singapore, when you are not affected in anyway?
james: you may be right that paedophiles may use that as an excuse, but have you ever try to put yourself in the shoes of the gays? Do you really think they have nothing better to do and want to be discriminated, want to like the same sex? So what if paedophiles use that as an excuse too, you asked. Well, as you know, laws are there to protect people. Having laws against paedophiles (regardless genetic or not) seeks to protect children. But here, may I ask, in what way or who does 377A seeks to protect? Protect the selfishness of the majority, who dont understand and will never seem to understand why gays are gays? To protect the intolerance of the majority who are not affected negatively in anyways by the repeal? Think again!
To others:
Me myself is conservative like the majority. But I wont say I am straight, neither do I like the way I am. I hate myself as who I am, I dont want to be who I am, to disappoint families and not having children. I want children. I love children. And I seriously hope I am straight and hope that I like girls. But it has never been the case. Simply likes and dislikes cannot be forced.
Girls never seems to appeal me or arouse me, no matter how hard I try. I can keep on trying to bluff myself that I like girls, but I dont. I dont understand what is so appealing in a girl, and how a girl turns straight guys on, except that I love my mum. On the other hand, I cant stop looking at guys. They seemed so much more appealing, and everything about a guy seems to turn me on. No matter how I tell myself not to, no matter how guilty I feel doing it, no matter how I feel it is wrong doing it, how I feel it is wrong liking a guy, nothing changes. Likes cannot be changed as you want it to. Just like none of the straight out there can turn to gays. Think again, can you force yourself to like the same sex, if you dont like? Can you?
My belief is (and also as how Kinsey puts it) everyone is in this range of scale between gay and straight. No one is perfectly straight and no one is perfectly gay. Hence the existence of also bisexual. There is no clear boundary between gays and straight. The area is gray. If you think you are perfectly straight, then think about it: Do you really never ever have even a slightest attraction to the same sex? I believe you do have, but later put off that thought by your “more straight” trait, and is probably too insignificant for you to understand your fellow friends at the other end of the scale. Likewise, I dont understand why straight people are straight too. So why should there be a discrimination by distinctly labelling one as gay and deny them of the equal rights they deserve? Imagine the situation: What if being straight is a minority and the gays are discriminating against you? Will you grow to become gay then? Will you start to stop having the disgusting thoughts about guys loving guys then? Most likely NO. The same is true the other way round.
Actually, I am neither supportive of gays nor against it. Like I have said, I am also conservative. Being gay is “not normal” and not good in my opinion, as I really wished to be part of the mainstream who are straight and lead a “normal life”. But I cannot choose who I want to be when I am not even offered the chance by nature to choose. Just like many other gays in this conservative society, I may and most likely, in the end, ended up (under pressure) marrying a girl (that I can get along well), have children and accepted by society, family and narrow-minded individuals who do not tolerate gay. This may be considered by the mainstream to be the ideal and a happy ending. But if you think again, first of all, the guy is not leading a happy life and secondly the girl’s life is ruined. She has married a man who doesnt love her at all, a man who has all along only loved her as a good friend, not that kind of true love. Well, you could argue that true love can be developed, but do you really think so? mind you, true love may not even be developed between 2 straights.
Now I believe, it is quite clear, forcing the gays to turn straight by retaining 377A is not going to lead to a happy ending in anyway. Gays should not be discriminated and given the same rights as all others. Repealing 377A on the other hand, does not lead to any justifiable negative consequence either. In fact, when we read through all the posts above, and think through them carefully and unbiasedly, you will realised (and get disgusted) that those calling to retain 377A are really discriminative and selfish. They have nothing to lose if 377A got repealed sucessfully. They simply wish gays to be jailed to be gone far away from them (discrimination). Mind you, there are a high number of gays who seems straight or act straight. So, you already have a number of such friends and you dont know who. On ther other hand, those calling for a repeal have every right. They only wish to be treated equally. It is such a simple yet denied wish.
I must say, I was neutral about whether to repeal 377A, as I have said, I DONT WISH TO BE GAY. I am not straight, but I REFUSE to admit I am gay too. This is what the conservative society have made me to be. Girls dont appeal me, but neither am I ready to accept who I am and get into any relationship with a guy. But guys really appeals me much more. That explains my neutrality. Nevertheless, after reading through all the posts above, I do agree that 377A is a complete discrimination that doesnt makes any sense. As rubbish as the chewing gum ban, which protects no one, in any sense, positively. 377A have to be repealed!
October 20th, 2007 at 12:06 am
Hey James,
Think before you write or even open your mouth.
You totally disgust me in comparing gay to paedophiles!!!!
October 20th, 2007 at 12:36 am
Re: comparison of being gay to paedophilia and beastiality. Consider whether having sexual relations with a child and an animal are on similar terms as a consenting relationship between 2 adults. It is hard to justify that a child/animal can consent to having sex with an adult, hence to frown on such unequal relations would be rather universal. However, for an equal relationship that is being discriminated on the basis of an irrational fear (eg do you really think ppl wanna “erode your family values” and turn straight people gay?), how do they match up?
Re: reproduction. Mankind is overpopulating the planet. True maybe here in little SG, gahmen says we need more people. But the planet certainly does not. In any case, it would be quite silly to discriminate against people who do not reproduce, straight or gay. Even sillier to suggest that reproduction a measure of deserving goodies from the govt. We might else well propose a Anti-Laziness Act, for all those who don’t achieve their targets and hence contribute less to the economy (die slackers!).
Finally, I doubt one can survive in Singapore if you are just relying on taxpayers money for old age! ;p
October 20th, 2007 at 5:48 am
Homosexuality has been around since the early times.
In the bible, God has told everyone to be accepting of everyone irregardless of who or what they are, but yet he condemned the men who tried to force his messengers into having sex.
Yes, it is indeed wrong to force people to engage in same sex activities, but if it’s on a mutual consensus by both parties, why is there a need to criminalise these acts and let it be considered “dirty”?
If we can accept and forgive people for their wrongdoings and accept them for who they are, why can’t we accept the fact that someone; your friend, your cousin, your loved one, is a homosexual?
Repeal 377A. It could actually make a difference in your life and others.
October 20th, 2007 at 7:52 am
I am a happily married man with a 9 month old son. I love many things about living in Singapore but simply cannot understand why a nation which celebrates racial tolerance can be so intolerant towards sexual diversity. I had no more choice over my heterosexuality than my homosexual friends had in relation to their sexuality. Singapore really needs to get with the rest of the civilised world and repeal this ongoing international embarassment.
October 20th, 2007 at 9:20 am
I can’t understand what is so controversial about allowing fellow Singaporeans to live in Singapore free from the fear of prosecution and imprisonment for up to 2 years for physically expressing an undeniable part of themselves, with regard to something they have no choice about. Who am I to pronounce judgement on people? Who am I to pronounce judgement on gay men, just because they are gay and just because they are MEN?
I wish people thought harder about what it is they are saying about themselves when they object to the repeal of s 377A. Just because you are 1. part of the majority and/or 2. have the power over other people to govern how they live or face the consequences does NOT mean that you have the right to dictate the terms of how they live: it places upon you a RESPONSIBILITY to THINK and act how YOU would like to be treated yourself.
October 20th, 2007 at 2:01 pm
Homosexuality is a disease, and can be fully cured with therapy and hormonal injection, counselling etc. Please use your effort to help the lost souls..
October 20th, 2007 at 5:29 pm
Men kissing men on the street; men holding hands with men in public; men performs oral sex and anus sex to another men. Yes, these are consenting adults, but do these behaviours sound right to normal human being ? Physically, human body is not design for same sex having sex. Anus sex will cause loss of bowel control, that means gay men will s*** in their pants. Anus is design for passing motion, not sex. Human body is designed for procreations, that means sex should be between a man and a woman.
This is not about discriminations, this is not about majority’s views, this is not about depriving minority’s rights, this is not about consenting adults, this is not about lack of tolerence of others’ lifestyle, this is not about being conservative. This is about the law of nature and deep in our heart , our conscience and our instint tell us that gay sex is wrong. This is as wrong as two consenting adults having incestious relationship.
If the law allows gay sex, how about incest between two consenting adults ? Will anyone in this forum claims that making incest a crime is a discrimination and will fight for this group minority’s rights ? Even the gay knows gay sex is wrong deep in their heart, though they are doing it, with guilt.
October 20th, 2007 at 6:43 pm
Dr Lim:
Well, how I hope it is a disease and can be cured with medicine. But whether gay is inborn is a controversial issues among the straights. They will never understand until one day it is scientifically proven and publicised. And even then, it is still not hard to find people who believe gay are not inborn. Only the gays can tell you, they are inborn.
One example of a similar case is whether a person is left or right handed. People always argue that left-handedness is caused by habits, but it is really the genes. Even after it has been scientifically proven, there still exist stubborn individual that believe it is caused by habits. Some parents or even worst, teachers, force the children to use right-hand, in believing that right-handedness have to be cultivated. But they didnt know, that not only they are doing the wrong thing, but it can also result undesirable impact on the children. Only a left-handed person will understand that he is born left-handed, similarly for the gays… and yes, I am left-handed.
October 20th, 2007 at 6:48 pm
Homosexuality is NOT a disease, and CANNOT be fully cured with therapy and hormonal injection, counselling etc.
Please use your effort to help the doctors who have lost their minds. Help them find their path towards logic, reason, and truth.
October 20th, 2007 at 7:51 pm
Homosexuality is never a disease to begin with, unless you perceive it as one. How would you feel if I tell you heterosexuality is a disease and it must be cured?
The thing is, if you are a homophobe, admit and deal with it. Just stop being selfish and narrow minded. There is more to this world than your one-sided point of view.
October 21st, 2007 at 1:18 pm
homosexuality is not a disease, wisecrack.
and poolfan, why then would you deserve rights gays are denied of if our society practices equality? you too, are only human.
October 21st, 2007 at 2:11 pm
What dicifers law of nature?
What decifers pure sex?
Ultimately, you get to decide it all.
The fact is your decision is completely based on your point of view, the topic is never right or wrong. Moreover, you stated that it is between consenting adults, that are fully rational of their actions. Why are so paranoid since it does not posses any threats to you?
On the contrary, sex between homosexuals and incest are totally different issues. So please stop comparing gays as to anything you can get hold of as something “immoral”.
Straights like you ppl practice oral and anal sex to your female counterparts as well, and for the record, that oral sex amongst straights has been legalised. How different is it as compared to the gay community?
The gay community comprises of our female counterparts as well.
Why not mention “what’s wrong between girls kissing girls?”, besides nothing is really wrong unless you see it so.
Evidently, you just portray your discomfort against gay males.
However if you are unaware of the fact that homosexuality is not all about a man to man having sex, it invovles real lives of people (coping with prejudices from ppl like you and trying adapt to society, hoping to be accepted for who we really are) within this society and is happening around you. Whether you like it or not.
The catch is, you STILL directing it as a form of discrimination and inequality since stating your dismay.
Once again, stop staying in your puiny little box with your sheltered thoughts of your “pure values”, open up the cover and look whats happening around you.
October 21st, 2007 at 3:56 pm
Do people consider gays and their actions as negative externalities? Do people actually suffer if gay sex is allowed? Do I turn gay just because I see two men holding hands/kissing?
Since I do not know much about the psyche, I guess it’s hard to comment on such issues…
I personally find that kind of behaviour disgusting…but it’s their life…so why should my views affect them…
October 21st, 2007 at 7:54 pm
sad 1……..just because god created adam and eve. We had to live thru life as it is….what if god created adam and adam or maybe eve and eve.
sad 2…..so “Anus sex will cause loss of bowel control, that means gay men will s*** in their pants. Anus is design for passing motion, not sex” Why does the goverment had repeal anal sex between hetersexual. So its alright for women who had that to s**t in their pants as well…or maybe the “norm” way to have sex will have uncontrol “peeing” effects ? its ok?
Common la….world peace….its not gonna kill you if u have self control over it. we are all human……law is created by human….period…
October 22nd, 2007 at 7:11 am
The reality is, the government is unlikely to repeal the section out of the blue. Unfortunately, it is not as simple as petitioning a government and hoping that something will be done about it immediately as this website states (repeal 377a NOW!).
As for my view, I take the realist approach to all things. (ie, more a negative / pessimistic view). I doubt a repeal will come in the near future, however, if i may quote Voltaire (although some argue that he did not say the following words), “I do not agree with what you have to say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it”
So yes, to those that set up this website, good luck in trying to get the section repealed! I may not totally agree with it, but we all have core rights and ultimately, society will work itself out eventually.
October 22nd, 2007 at 2:22 pm
Reading some of the comments on this site, has made me realise for all the wonderful economic growth Singapore has undergone in the past 20 years, some minds are literally still in the kampongs. What a shame. What a sad sad shame…
I left Singapore 12 years ago, because I refused to be criminalised by a law that I know to have no legal foundation. Adultery also undermines society in a way religion believes, as does sex before marriage too. Yet neither of these are enshrined in the law as criminal behaviour. Ask yourselves why the double-standard and bare faced hypocrisy?
All I know is I will never return to Singapore because my gay partner and myself have rights here in the UK. We live together under a civil partnership and in Singapore our long term relationship would have no recognition.
It is a sad day when I hear ignorant Singaporeans who have received a first class education system spouting sheer hatred and anger towards people they don’t even know!
I thought within a decade this country of ours would enter modernity on an equal footing with civilised nations. It may have a decent GDP, but boy are some people still living in the dark ages.
October 23rd, 2007 at 5:16 pm
Don’t compare to Western society 1st. In Asia country which lead by majority Chinese comunity like Hong Kong & Taiwan already abolished Act 377A years ago. When is the time that S’pore want to move on to new era?
October 24th, 2007 at 2:22 am
It’s final, the decision has been made and both sides have aired the issues. As with any public debate between the minority and the majority, the controversy had revolved around repealing 377A, not 377.
What if, and it’s only a ‘what if’, someone imagines an art project that we take a retroactive step to retain Section 377? A hypothetical website could be for example “www.keep377.com”.
Now that would be something to muse over. Respectfully of course.
October 24th, 2007 at 12:51 pm
it’s difficult growing up gay hiding in a cloak of secrecy about our own sexuality. it’s hurting to love someone and the reason you cant be together because the other claimed that neither is one of the opposite gender. it’s tiring to play gender neutrality all the time. i’m sick of being assexual. come on! why impose a law on what ppl do behind bedroom doors unless you intend to film it? am i less deserving of love and sex because i’m gay? In this material world, i’m paying taxes and working my ass off. As a daughter, i’m filial and look after my family. am i less deserving than a heterosexual woman just because i don’t love a man and reproduce? at least let us have a right to buy a flat at 30.
October 27th, 2007 at 11:35 pm
I don’t understand why equality has to be such a wiry topic for some people.
We’re not asking for your understanding, nor to be accepted, or invited into your homes. We’re not asking that you like us. We are asking that the government treat its citizens fairly, and equally. The state cannot allow rule of majority to be the main thrust of its legislation coherence. It’s gang mentality at best. The issue is thorny, sure, but ignoring it is cowardly.
The people of the state are allowed their bias, but the state should not be allowed to codify that bias into national policy. Read the literature - how are you going to be judged in history?
November 4th, 2007 at 5:31 pm
And yes : Reppeal it !
November 15th, 2007 at 2:04 am
Give peace a chance.
All you need is love.